Low-Power War: AM1 vs Bay Trail-D

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killeriq

#21 Re: Low-Power War: AM1 vs Bay Trail-D

Post by killeriq »

Hello,

Thanks for the great post about the AMD/Intel low power CPUs

Im currently looking for my NAS (zyxel nsa 325 v2) and Android TV (Minix x8) replacement...

Need 3-4x HDD space + hdmi out for media center, 24/7 online

First i was thinking about HP Microserver N40/N56 or the newest G8 G2020T cpu - but there is no HDMI (so would need Graphic card which is extra costs)

Then ive find out about AM1 platform with 5350 or 5370 with Asrock AM1H-ITX which seems nice combo + Bitfenix Prodigy or Cooler Master Elite 130 (but only 3xHDD)

Now there is also Intel platform out J3710

Co im confused which one would be better to fit my needs?

Thanks for any suggestion ;)
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#22 Re: Low-Power War: AM1 vs Bay Trail-D

Post by Dirk Broer »

killeriq wrote:Then ive find out about AM1 platform with 5350 or 5370 with Asrock AM1H-ITX which seems nice combo + Bitfenix Prodigy or Cooler Master Elite 130 (but only 3xHDD). Now there is also Intel platform out J3710. Co im confused which one would be better to fit my needs? Thanks for any suggestion ;)
Being an AMD User myself, I'd like to point out the AVX, BMI and F16c instructions/extentions that the AM1 platform SOCs supports as opposed to the Braswell, and the better IGP of the AMD SOC (but do not use Ubuntu 16.04 as OS, or you'll loose the GPU due to the Open-Source driver that does not support OpenCL higher than 1.1, user-experience speaking here).
Energy consumption-wise, the extreme low TDP of the Braswell is an advantage (but when choosing AMD together with a 60 Watt pico-PSU -or laptop brick- that difference might be much smaller).

The Asrock boards for the two SOCs differ hardly in features: The AM1H-ITX supports VGA, handy for my KVM switch and would also allow for an extra Video card, while the J3710 board from Asrock lacks that feature.

My own -biased- conclusion: AM1 has the advantage.
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#23 Re: Low-Power War: AM1 vs Bay Trail-D

Post by killeriq »

Thanks for reply, im also AMD user (also due to cost and not so many chipsets X times a year :) )
Well thanks for advice i will go for the AMD, hope there is no new AMD cpu plan in close future (just if i should wait a bit)
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#24 Re: Low-Power War: AM1 vs Bay Trail-D

Post by Dirk Broer »

killeriq wrote:hope there is no new AMD cpu plan in close future (just if i should wait a bit)
Oh yes there is! Zen is 'around the corner', but the ones to look out for (in the same class as AM1/Braswell) are either Socket FM4 'Stoney Ridge' boards/SOCs or Socket FP4 boards with onboard 'Stoney Ridge' SOCs. I have seen no benchmarks for these yet, so if you can get your hands on a Athlon 5370 and a Asrock AM1H-ITX, I'd do that. 'Stoney Ridge' is rumoured to be made of 'Excavator' modules, I prefer the four real Jaguar cores of the AM1 platform.
AM1 is already hard to get around here, some shops don't even stock the boards anymore...
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#25 Re: Low-Power War: AM1 vs Bay Trail-D

Post by killeriq »

one more quetion, with pic PSU u ment this:
http://resources.mini-box.com/online/PW ... 0-big2.jpg
or


Regarding the Wattage i need to buy the same laptop adapter, right? or it doesnt matter?

Somewhere ive seen that Asrock AM1H-ITX - its also made with DC connector.

Aliexpress link - there are plenty of 150-160w picopsu, can i get that one? or which one to get?
http://www.aliexpress.com/w/wholesale-p ... t=pico+psu


will be 4 x 3.5 HDD + MB/CPU
----
ADD:
Did some more reading regarding CPU/Socket - as i want it only as NAS and media player - was thinking more about N3150, but ive found also newer version J3160 - ASRock mainboards cost around the same. I like AMD, but the less power take is for me more beneficial then some advantage in GPU power, most of the time it will only sits in living room as idle NAS device.
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#26 Re: Low-Power War: AM1 vs Bay Trail-D

Post by Dirk Broer »

It is almost like these postings are being read at Asrock HQ themselves....almost, because I've just made them readable again by applying the TSBT home style table format.
Why read by Asrock, as you might ask: the last two series of Intel low-power boards have two PS/2 ports again! (handy for us multi-port KVM-Switch owners!)
Back too, to the delight of those KVM-users, are the VGA ports (but at the cost of Display ports).
Two Series? Yes, Bay Trail and Braswell have been followed up by Apollo Lake and most recently Gemini Lake.
Apollo Lake can use 1866 MHz DDR3, Gemini Lake even 2400 MHz DDR4. Nifty tables will follow soon....
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#27 Re: Low-Power War: AM1 vs Bay Trail-D

Post by Dirk Broer »

Aagain a new overview of the coolest running CPUs/APUs/SOCs your money can buy. All values are based upon the TDP value as given by the manufacturer (aka Intel, from evil inside), so please take them with a spoon of salt (a big spoon).

There are, as ever, three problems translating these specs into real-life performance:
  1. TDP is what it is, it is *NOT* a definite measurement of real-life power consumption. Looke e.g. here.
  2. Crunching-wise, an IGP -a capable IGP that is- gets you far more BOINC credits than the cores of your CPU itself.
  3. Knowing how much Watt TDP per core is used still says nothing about the credits per core earned, I'd rather have IPC (instructions per clock cycle) figures.
Knowing all that, I still went on producing a top-10 list of this moment's coolest desktop CPUs (or SOCs, or APUs, whatever).
I kicked out the Atoms for budget's sake this time however.
Coolest CPU: 2018
RankingBrandVersionSocketModelSpeed in MHzTurbo SpeedThreadsTDP in WattsTDP/ThreadsTurbo/TDP
1IntelPentium N3700onboardBraswell-M16002400461.50462
2IntelCeleron J3160onboardBraswell-D16002240461.50373
3IntelCeleron N3150onboardBraswell-M16002080461.50347
4IntelPentium J3710onboardBraswell-D16002640471.75377
5IntelPentium J5005onboardGemini Lake150028004 102.50280
6IntelPentium J2900onboardBay Trail-D241026704 102.50267
7IntelPentium J4205onboardApollo Lake150026004 102.50260
8IntelCeleron J4105onboardGemini Lake150025004 102.50250
9IntelCeleron J1900onboardBay Trail-D200024104102.50241
10IntelCeleron J3455onboardApollo Lake150023004 102.50230
Again the word of advice: when using these low-powered chips it makes absolutely NO sense to connect them to a 750 Watt -or more- PSU, even when it is 'platinum' or 'titanium' certified. The power draw of these systems is so low that even these heavily certified PSUs can't really get to their efficient values.
You might want to consider a laptop brick, and a 60 to 90 Watt Pico PSU. It is far quieter too!
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If you want the system to double as NAS you can use a heavier Pico PSU of course, or a passively cooled ATX power supply of 400 Watt when you want to go for RAID 5 or RAID 6, or more (RAID 50 or 60 even?).
Some of these boards using the SOCs as described above come in DC (as in direct current) versions (e.g. the Asrock Q1900DC-ITX) that can be used straightaway with a laptop brick.
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#28 Re: Low-Power War: AM1 vs Bay Trail-D

Post by Alez »

Dirk Broer wrote: Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:59 am It is almost like these postings are being read at Asrock HQ themselves....almost, because I've just made them readable again by applying the TSBT home style table format.
It is a pretty awesome looking thread. Keep that info flowing.
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#29 Re: Low-Power War: AM1 vs Bay Trail-D

Post by Dirk Broer »

Though AMD presently has nothing better to offer in this segment -motherboards with onboard CPUs/APUs/SOCs- than the A4-5000 SOC,
and only Asrock is left as supplier of mobo's equipped with those, there is nothing to hold back AMD from making an entry with a competing product.

The quad-core, eight-thread AMD Ryzen 7 2700U has a TDP of 15 Watt, runs standard at 2200 MHz and has a turbo speed of 3800 MHz.
This would ensure very good values in the previous table, on par with or even better than Gemini Lake. And AMD really shines is the supported instructions sets.
Features:
  • MMX instructions
  • Extensions to MMX
  • SSE / Streaming SIMD Extensions
  • SSE2 / Streaming SIMD Extensions 2
  • SSE3 / Streaming SIMD Extensions 3
  • SSSE3 / Supplemental Streaming SIMD Extensions 3
  • SSE4 / SSE4.1 + SSE4.2 / Streaming SIMD Extensions 4
  • SSE4a
  • AES / Advanced Encryption Standard instructions
  • AVX / Advanced Vector Extensions
  • AVX2 / Advanced Vector Extensions 2.0
  • BMI / BMI1 + BMI2 / Bit Manipulation instructions
  • F16C / 16-bit Floating-Point conversion instructions
  • FMA3 / 3-operand Fused Multiply-Add instructions
  • AMD64 / AMD 64-bit technology
  • EVP / Enhanced Virus Protection
  • AMD-V / AMD Virtualization technology
  • Precision Boost 2
  • Mobile Extended Frequency Range
CPU-Z scores
Athlon 5350Athlon A4-5000Ryzen 7 2700U
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If Bay Trail, Braswell, Apollo Lake and Gemini Lake have one thing in common is is the limited number of instruction sets:
Features
  • MMX instructions
  • SSE / Streaming SIMD Extensions
  • SSE2 / Streaming SIMD Extensions 2
  • SSE3 / Streaming SIMD Extensions 3
  • SSSE3 / Supplemental Streaming SIMD Extensions 3
  • SSE4 / SSE4.1 + SSE4.2 / Streaming SIMD Extensions 4
  • EM64T / Extended Memory 64 technology / Intel 64
  • NX / XD / Execute disable bit
  • VT-x / Virtualization technology
  • BPT / Burst Performance technology
Braswell later adding AES and Apollo Lake and Gemini Lake adding SHA (Secure Hash Algorithm extensions) and VT-d to that
CPU-Z scores
Pentium J2900Pentium J3710Pentium J4205
ImageImageImage
Braswell was better than Bay Trail by virtue of e.g. SATA-600 support, Apollo Lake was better than Braswell by virtue of e.g. the increased bus speed (100 MHz instead of 85 MHz),
where Gemini Lake really shines is the double amount of L2 cache as compared to its earlier brothers, the added max. memory bandwidth by virtue of the 2400 MHz DDR4 RAM
and last but not least: the added codec support, That codec support had already increased over the previous generations so there is a staggering difference between Bay Trail and Gemini Lake.
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#30 Re: Low-Power War: AM1 vs Bay Trail-D

Post by Dirk Broer »

I'd never thought I would do this: I'm going to make a new system for my missus, using an Asrock J5005-ITX.
As there are no equivalent embedded Ryzen boards out yet, and the missus is getting sick and tired of her old Pentium Dual Core trying to start Windows10 32-bit with a mere 3GB usable DDR2 RAM, I will build her an Asrock J5005-ITX system with -for now- 8 GB of DDR4 RAM (there is a German hardware site where a Celeron J4105 edition of Gemini Lake has been tested with 32 GB of RAM), a Samsung 860 EVO SSD instead of her old HDD and 64-bit Win10 of course.
On top of that I will pinch her GT 630 GPU (as the J5005 has powerful enough internal graphics) and will replace her PSU with a Seasonic 400 Watt Fanless (80+ Platinum certified!).
This will leave her with a soundless PC which uses almost no power, a win/win situation as it seems to be called nowadays by managers and the likes of them.

P.S.: I might want to use the GT 630 in a FreeBSD system, as my experiment with AMD graphics and FreeBSD turned out to be a disaster.
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#31 Re: Low-Power War: AM1 vs Bay Trail-D

Post by Alez »

Dirk Broer wrote: Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:01 am I'd never thought I would do this:
..... so it begins, your journey to the dark side of the force :o
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#32 Re: Low-Power War: AM1 vs Bay Trail-D

Post by Dirk Broer »

Alez wrote: Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:39 pm
Dirk Broer wrote: Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:01 am I'd never thought I would do this:
..... so it begins, your journey to the dark side of the force :o
I can always throw the board in the nearest volcano, provided i can find enough hobbits to travel with...I'll be my own Gandalf (grey hair is turning white)

Now for a snappy Star Trek reply, then we've offended three groups of fans :lol:
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#33 Re: Low-Power War: AM1 vs Bay Trail-D

Post by Alez »

Now for a snappy Star Trek reply, then we've offended three groups of fans :lol:
Obviously you've given in to the fact that
The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the one
:ugeek:

or simply go full Microsoft / Borg
"We are the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile."
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#34 Re: Low-Power War: AM1 vs Bay Trail-D

Post by Dirk Broer »

Alez wrote: Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:26 am
Now for a snappy Star Trek reply, then we've offended three groups of fans :lol:
Obviously you've given in to the fact that
The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the one
:ugeek:
or simply go full Microsoft / Borg
"We are the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile."
Never had only Intel and never will I have have either. There has always been at least one AMD running in my farm -and nowadays there's ARM (and Power PC from my collection!)
If I win the lottery I may buy an Intel Xeon -once I have exhausted my AMD must-haves.

AMD must-haves:
Raven Ridge Ryzen 3 2200G - 1st upgrade to my present Asrock A320M Pro4 Bristol Ridge AM4 system. Bristol Ridge will go to a Asrock A320-iTX bord, replacing another FM1 system
Raven Ridge Ryzen 3 2400G - 2nd upgrade, to be placed in a Asrock AB350M Pro4 -yet another FM1 system in strategic reserve
Pinnacle Ridge Ryzen 5 2600 - 3rd upgrade, to be placed in a Asrock B450M Pro4
etc, all the way up to a 32-core Threadripper 2
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#35 Re: Low-Power War: AM1 vs Bay Trail-D

Post by Dirk Broer »

My first RMA mobo: the Asrock J5005-iTX is on its long way back to the manufacturer. The shop has ordered a new one and once it is in they send my old board (plus SATA cables, driver DVD, I/O shield, quick intallation guide and M.2 screw) to Asrock via the importer.

I could not get any video, it did not post. If I pushed the power button, the system fan began to turn -that's all. After a minute or so the fan came to a halt even.
Both VGA and HDMI claimed 'no signal'. Without RAM a continuous series of three long beeps and a short break in between, with RAM (either one or two) a sublime version of Simon & Garfunkel's "Sound of Silence". Boy am I disturbed....and I am not even the only one
[youtube][/youtube]
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#36 Re: Low-Power War: AM1 vs Bay Trail-D

Post by Dirk Broer »

Second mobo, same problems. Turns out that the Kingston HX424S14IBK2/8 HyperX CAS14 DDR4 SODIMM modules are incompatible with the Intel J5005 (both for mobo's and Intel NUCs)....
The computer store is very helpful: when I ordered G.Skill RAM that is compatible in exchange with the KIngston sticks, they offered to test it on the 1st mobo -which they still have in store.
If all works out well with the new RAM I may buy the 1st board again, to test Win 10 against Linux on this platform.
The G.Skill RAM works, Windows 8 is busy with update 87 of 131 (first series of updates). I hope it rolls all the way to Windows 10...but no: One of the updates is rotten. To be continued.

Win10 up and running. System performs markedly superior to the DDR2-fed Pentium dual-core that it replaces. Might be tempted to install BOINC on the system :D Rumour has it that it is as powerful as a quad-core Intel Q6600. I have visited the store and asked for the 1st board again, as they had tested it with the G.Skill RAM and it worked. 'Out' (read: in strategic reserve) goes a quad-core 100 Watt TDP AMD FM1 system (A8-3850).
Let's compare the J5005 against the A8-3850 and the Q6600:
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#37 Re: Low-Power War: AM1 vs Bay Trail-D

Post by Dirk Broer »

I received the DDR4 SoDIMMs (2 sticks for a total of 16 GB) for the other board today and managed to run BOINC just a little later (I played dirty: I connected a Linux Mint 19 disk)
Unbelievable MIPS values, which I will share with you as soon as the Win10 board will have a running BOINC client/manager configuration.
For the time being I will state that a fresh Win10 install and BOINC don't mix. Merely allowing every BOINC *.exe through the firewall is not enough....
I am faced with a manager that has no projects to choose from, no settings to change and an unavailable BOINC log under a fresh Win10.

For the Linux client the big let-down is that, just as with AMD GPUs, the Intel GPU is not recognized in Mint 19 (or any other recent Linux distro that uses the Open Source video drivers)... :cussing:
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#38 Re: Low-Power War: AM1 vs Bay Trail-D

Post by Dirk Broer »

The latest kernel-update for Linux Mint 19 made the Intel IGP in my J5005 recognized by BOINC!
The Win10 J5005 still won't download WUs from any project....
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#39 Re: Low-Power War: AM1 vs Bay Trail-D

Post by Hal Bregg »

It's been a while, Dirk, since your last update. Any luck?
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#40 Re: Low-Power War: AM1 vs Bay Trail-D

Post by Dirk Broer »

I can state that Linux support for Intel IGPs is dawning -at the level of Linux AMD support, so infuriating low. OpenCL 2.0 support for the beignet driver though.
WU's start, but get postponed. No error messages, but they keep getting postponed.

The Win10 J5005 still will not download from any project -in fact I had the biggest of problems getting the projects to show up in the BOINC manager at all.
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#41 Re: Low-Power War: AM1 vs Bay Trail-D

Post by Dirk Broer »

We can safely say that the days of both AM1 and Bay Trail-D are left behind us. Nowadays it is Goldmont Plus/Gemini Lake as far Intel is concerned and they have a new iron in the fire: the Pentium J5040. AMD meanwhile..... keeps awfully quiet.
What can the J5040 do? Everyting that the J5005 could, but faster. The J5040 has a base frequency of 2000MHz (J5005 1500MHz), and a turbo speed of 3200MHz on one core, and 2800MHz on all (J5005 2800MHz on one core, and 2700MHz on all). Quiet surprisingly, the number of Execution Units (EUs) of the Intel UHD Graphics 605 IGP has been lowered to 12 (J5005 had 18).

What could AMD offer to e.g. Asrock, the total and utter kings of iTX onboard boards? They can counter the Onboard Celeron offerings with their AMD Ryzen Embedded R1505G and/or R1606G (both having a 15 Watt TDP and Vega 3 graphics -the same as the desktop Athlons. Both are dual-cores with hyper-threading, so offering a total of 4 threads (something only the deluxe Celerons can), but they also have 3rd level cache and support much more instructions than the Goldmont Plus generation. Codec-wise h264 Decode/Encode; JPEG Decode/Encode; h265 8bit Decode/Encode; h265 10bit Decode/Encode; VP8 Decode/Encode; VP9 Decode/Encode; VC-1 Decode; AVC Decode, so a huge improvement to the AM1 platform -which had none of these goodies, making it a bad choice for a multi-media center.
The new Intel Pentium J5040 could face another Ryzen however: the Ryzen V1605B. This has a same base frequency as the J5040, but a turbo of 3600MHz. The TDP is 15 Watt and the graphics are Vega 8 -the same as the Ryzen 5 2200G and 3200G. It has four cores with hyper-threading and Codec-wise it is the same as the R-series, and it also has that 3rd level cache.
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#42 Re: Low-Power War: AM1 vs Bay Trail-D

Post by jockmacmad2 »

Dirk Broer wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:09 am We can safely say that the days of both AM1 and Bay Trail-D are left behind us. Nowadays it is Goldmont Plus/Gemini Lake as far Intel is concerned and they have a new iron in the fire: the Pentium J5040. AMD meanwhile..... keeps awfully quiet.
What can the J5040 do? Everyting that the J5005 could, but faster. The J5040 has a base frequency of 2000MHz (J5005 1500MHz), and a turbo speed of 3200MHz on one core, and 2800MHz on all (J5005 2800MHz on one core, and 2700MHz on all). Quiet surprisingly, the number of Execution Units (EUs) of the Intel UHD Graphics 605 IGP has been lowered to 12 (J5005 had 18).

What could AMD offer to e.g. Asrock, the total and utter kings of iTX onboard boards? They can counter the Onboard Celeron offerings with their AMD Ryzen Embedded R1505G and/or R1606G (both having a 15 Watt TDP and Vega 3 graphics -the same as the desktop Athlons. Both are dual-cores with hyper-threading, so offering a total of 4 threads (something only the deluxe Celerons can), but they also have 3rd level cache and support much more instructions than the Goldmont Plus generation. Codec-wise h264 Decode/Encode; JPEG Decode/Encode; h265 8bit Decode/Encode; h265 10bit Decode/Encode; VP8 Decode/Encode; VP9 Decode/Encode; VC-1 Decode; AVC Decode, so a huge improvement to the AM1 platform -which had none of these goodies, making it a bad choice for a multi-media center.
The new Intel Pentium J5040 could face another Ryzen however: the Ryzen V1605B. This has a same base frequency as the J5040, but a turbo of 3600MHz. The TDP is 15 Watt and the graphics are Vega 8 -the same as the Ryzen 5 2200G and 3200G. It has four cores with hyper-threading and Codec-wise it is the same as the R-series, and it also that 3rd level cache.
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Also there are the new AMD Renoir 15W Parts incoming such as the RENOIR Ryzen 9 B12 15W FP6 and RENOIR NB RYZEN 9 PRO B12B 15W FP6 (still with their pre-release catchy names). Notebook chips so not from the embedded range but still a TDP of 15W.
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#43 Re: Low-Power War: AM1 vs Bay Trail-D

Post by Dirk Broer »

Intel-wise there's a new king in low-powerland, with a 'fancy' name, too.
No numbers (e.g 80486DX4-133) or names (e.g. 'Pentium', 'Celeron', or 'Core'), the Intel Marketing department has completely outdone itself and has come up with the name 'Processor'.

Commercially the first offered to us is de Processor N100, let's cut the crap and compare them honestly:
CPU-Z (click to make bigger)
ImageImage
Never mind CPU-Z here on the N100, it's still new.

HWINFO64 (click to make bigger)
ImageImage

So: it runs even cheaper (6 Watt as compared to 10 Watt TDP), supports more (important) instructions, has a higher turbo speed and has a L3 cache.
I say Intel has a winner here. Codec-wise it offers also more than the J5005 and/or J5040, so replace those in your HTPC, moviebox or whatever.

ASRock offers the N100 in both iTX and MicroATX, ASUS also has a N100 board in the pipeline.
Keep your eyes out for N200 and/or (eight-core) N300 boards too though...Funny: the N305 seems to be worthy to carry the name 'Core i3'
Gigabyte GB-BNi3-N305 Brix Barebone
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#44 Re: Low-Power War: AM1 vs Bay Trail-D

Post by Dirk Broer »

Today I finally ordered a new ASRock N100DC-ITX to replace my aging ASRock J5005-ITX.

I had tested/debugged why the J5005 and other CPUs of its generation came back with unknown errors in SRBase and found out they all missed the support for an instruction (FMA3) that was in the (new) SRBase code. Though Rebirther from SRBase claimed either bad RAM or overheating as the cause for the errors, I suspect the lack of support for the FMA3 instruction was causing the overheating problems, especially when he pointed me to earlier error reports of his new application where FMA3 was clearly mentioned as requisite for the Gerbicz check -which is where the Gemini Lake CPUs went south.

The missing FMA3, together with the inability to get the Intel IGP to crunch anything other than the now defunct Collatz, made me decide to do what I advised others earlier: Change your low-power Intel Pentium onboard-boards (Braswell, Apollo Lake or Gemini Lake) to the generation of Intel N100 Processor boards.

After I ordered I fell into the famous "Cognitive Dissonance Trap": I tried to justify my acquisition by looking at the Asrock site to check if there was an AMD board that had likewise specs. For years Asrock -total and utter kings of low-power x86 iTX boards- had nothing better to offer than A4-5000 based boards, but not today of course. I found out that they just announced a new FP6TM-ITX onboard range of boards to be powered by Ryzen Mobile 4000U, 5000U or 7000U CPUs. The boards are all Socket FP6, so new that I couldn't find them at resellers yet. But keep an eye out for them, they run cheaper than the AM1 platform (TDP -for what's it worth- as low as 15 watt compared to 25 Watt for AM1, so comparable to the A4-5000), but still consume much more power than N100. As their performance and their specs offer both more you can actually better compare them with the 15 Watt TDP 8-core Intel N305 boards, where the better AMD Barcelo-R offerings have the advantage of hyperthreading -16 threads at 15 Watt TDP sure isn't bad...
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