Xeon server build

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scole of TSBT
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#21 Re: Xeon server build

Post by scole of TSBT »

That looks like a 32 core setup, assuming you enable hyper-threading in the BIOS. It doesn't appear to have any disks in the configuration yet, just the RAID controller and drive bays/caddies, You'll need 2 drives and set them up as RAID 1, mirrored.

Not sure what you mean by the OS being shared. The OS will use all cores on both CPUs. Nothing special you need to do. Or do you you mean a dual boot setup so you can boot and run Win64 or linux? If so, that's possible.
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#22 Re: Xeon server build

Post by pinhodecarlos »

The E2650 has 8 cores, each rack has 2 CPU's. 16 cores per rack.
Building with 8 racks, 128 cores.

So those those drivers installed can be installed anywhere on those 8 racks and the OS will always detect the 128 cores, is this correct?
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#23 Re: Xeon server build

Post by scole of TSBT »

Those are rack servers, meaning they are made to install in a rack. Each rack server has 2 CPUs in it and each rack server will need a minimum of 2 disks (compatible with that server). Each rack server is a separate system and will require it's own OS and other software to be installed. If you are going to setup 8 rack servers, then you will have 8 separate servers. You can't share CPUs or cores between the separate servers.

NOTE: The E5-2650 has 8 cores but if you enable hyper-threading, it will have really run 16 threads, so you can actually get 32 threads per rack server. That is unless you really don't want to enable hyper-threading.
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#24 Re: Xeon server build

Post by pinhodecarlos »

Thank you Scole.
My questions follow the fact that msieve.exe, the client who does the post-processing for NFS integers, is compatible with MPI (https://www.open-mpi.org/). The large integers are ran on big blusters with this msieve version and therefore I was wondering if I can use it on these 8 rack servers. Overall we are talking about 8 nodes each one with 32 threads, which msieve can easily take advantage off. This rack solution is cheap but lack of InfiniBand connection between racks where it is needed for msieve, nevertheless still a cheap option.
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#25 Re: Xeon server build

Post by scole of TSBT »

It appears to have a SFP+ 10Gbit ethernet port. Not sure if that helps. And I can't tell but I wonder if that blank above the SFP+ port is a slot for a PCIe adapter? If so, could you add an InfiniBand adapter?
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#26 Re: Xeon server build

Post by Janos (retired) »

If you do get MPI working across all machines I would be very interested in learning what you found. Are you planning Linux or Windows? Judging by the .exe I am guessing Windows.
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#27 Re: Xeon server build

Post by pinhodecarlos »

My plan is to use linux because of MPI being compatible with it and not with windows.
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#28 Re: Xeon server build

Post by Bryan »

Pete, the 1st link to the Amandtech forum doesn't work. Is it correct?

Did you actually try it?
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#29 Re: Xeon server build

Post by Dirk Broer »

Bryan wrote: Fri May 26, 2017 8:44 pm Pete, the 1st link to the Amandtech forum doesn't work. Is it correct?

Did you actually try it?
Looks like the correct link is https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/what-controls-turbo-core-in-xeons.2496647/.
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#30 Re: Xeon server build

Post by Dirk Broer »

A wonder of space, the EPC612D4I
Image and just slightly over 300 Euro's here. Would actually fit into the tiniest of iTX casings.
Cooling-wise, I'd recommend a Bitfenix Prodigy or so: them Xeon's can turn out to be real hotheads, especially when all cores go full turbo.
The board takes ECC SoDIMMS of up to 16 GB each, up to a maximum of 64 GB. It will take Intel® Xeon® processors of the E5-1600/2600 v3/v4 series*
(for the v4 series a BIOS version 2.0 or above is required). Why are those 18-core Intel Xeon E5-2699 v3 CPUs around 5,000 Euro?
On the sunny side: 2nd hand 6-core E5-2620 v3's are a little over 200 Euro's.

Edit: I found a source that wants to let go hexa-core E5-2620 v3's for 55 Euro's, and octo-core E5-2650L v3's for 65 Euro's.... :shifty:
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#31 Re: Xeon server build

Post by Alez »

McShane of TSBT wrote: Fri May 26, 2017 11:11 pm No I hav'nt tried it yet due to RL and I am still working on two of my machines that are down. It is good that you found the right URL, I actually copied and pasted the whole article. If you are going to try it let me know how you went.
I've edited the post to make the full link clickable. Good luck with the sick 'puters
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#32 Re: Xeon server build

Post by Monk0054 »

Would never recommend using Xeon
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#33 Re: Xeon server build

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If you have a motherboard that supports Xeon's, they're the best CPUs for it. Even an AMD User like me can find no fault in that line of reasoning.
Bulldozer-based Opterons did not challenge the performance of their Xeon counterparts. And there are motherboards for data centers that support a whopping eight Xeon's.
Software-wise Xeon is more adaptable than Itanium, Intel's in-house adversary for 64-bit Xeons. In the big server market only IBM's Power9 seems left to challenge Xeon -at the moment.
Then again: how many BOINC projects run on Itanium and/or Power9?
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#34 Re: Xeon server build

Post by pinhodecarlos »

Can't understand why www.bargainhardware.co.uk has dual Octo Xeons (16C/32T) machines costing a lot more than a new 8C/16T AMD Ryzen machine.
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#35 Re: Xeon server build

Post by scole of TSBT »

What specific system and model Xeons?
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#36 Re: Xeon server build

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pinhodecarlos wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:23 am Can't understand why www.bargainhardware.co.uk has dual Octo Xeons (16C/32T) machines costing a lot more than a new 8C/16T AMD Ryzen machine.
I'd compare them to dual octo EPYCs, if I were you...the octo EPYC seemingly priced at $400 each :D
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#37 Re: Xeon server build

Post by pinhodecarlos »

scole250 wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:07 pm What specific system and model Xeons?
Try the HP620 here:

http://www.bargainhardware.co.uk/hp-z62 ... -to-order/
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#38 Re: Xeon server build

Post by scole of TSBT »

If you configure it with 2x E5-2650 V2 CPUs (which appears to boost all threads to 3.1Ghz), 64GB RAM, 750GB HDD, Win 10; it's £1,499.98 (inc Tax)£1,249.98 (exc Tax)

How much for a single CPU Ryzen 1700X system with 32GB RAM and 750GB HDD?

There are a couple drawbacks to the Ryzen 1700X. Clock speed isn't one of them though and it does use faster DDR4 RAM but it only supports 2 memory channels and it only supports a single 16x PCIe 3.0 slot. The Intel system only supporta DDR3 but it has 4 memory channels but it supports 40 PCIe 3.0 lanes. You can run at least two big GPUs in it without a bottleneck on the PCIe bus.

Intel systems have always cost more than AMD systems. It's based on demand. The Threadripper CPUs may change things.

If you're willing to build your own system and willing shop a while, the Xeon V4 Broadwell EP engineering sample CPUs are the shizzle. They won't clock as fast as the Ryzen but you can get more cores to make up the difference. And if you run an app that makes heavy use of AVX2, nothing can touch it. The Xeon V4's absolutely smoke it when running the SRBase LLR app.
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#39 Re: Xeon server build

Post by pinhodecarlos »

Scole,

Can you point me to those Xeon V4 Broadwell EP engineering sample CPUs ?

TIA.

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#40 Re: Xeon server build

Post by scole of TSBT »

pinhodecarlos wrote: Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:16 amCan you point me to those Xeon V4 Broadwell EP engineering sample CPUs ?
xeon v4 es on Ebay UK

Disclaimer: Some sellers don't list their ES CPUs accurately. Sometimes they really have no idea what they are selling. ES CPUs have different versions. Early run samples may have bugs in them. You have to look at the stepping code and research that run of ES CPU. For example, there is a E5-2650 v4 ES CPU 2.2Ghz listed as stepping QHV6. I think the last 1 or 2 digits define the particular model and the first 1-2 digits define how early or late of a sample it is. I have a set with QHV7. It's a 14c/28t 2.2Ghz CPU. Also, even if they list a CPU as E5-2650, the CPU won't have the same base or turbo clock speed as a retail CPU. Usually a couple tenths of Ghz lower.

If I had the $ for another system, I would snatch up a couple of these E5-2690 ES CPUs, QHV5 , which I think turbo all 28 threads to 3.1 Ghz E5-2690 ES 2.4Ghz QHV5

Finally, ES CPUs won't run in just any motherboard. They will only work in certain models. This is info from a Ebay post...
There is a high possibility of compatibility issues using this ES CPU (such as boot failure) onto branded computers or branded servers, because generally MOST BIOS of the branded servers and branded computers do NOT contain the Specific Microcode to support the engineering sample (ES) version of E5-2600 (v1, v2, v3 and v4) series CPUs.

The following is a Non-exclusive list of compatible products:

Compatible Servers & Workstations:

Dell: Precision T5810 (BIOS A12 or above)
Dell: T7810 (BIOS A12 or above)
Dell: T7910 (BIOS A12 or above)

Compatible Motherboards:

Supermicro: X10S series (all models with BIOS R2.0 or above)
Supermicro: X10D series (all models with BIOS R2.0 or above)
Supermicro: C7X99-OCE (BIOS R2.0 or above)

Tyan: S562 series (BIOS V2.00 or above)
Tyan: S707 series (BIOS V2.00 or above)
Tyan: S708 series (BIOS V2.00 or above)

Asus: Z10PE-D8 WS (BIOS 3204 or above)
Asus: Z10PE-D16 WS (BIOS 3204 or above)
Asus: Z10PA-U8 (BIOS 3202 or above)
Asus: Z10PA-D8 (BIOS 3107 or above)
Asus: Z10PC-D8 (BIOS 3104 or above)
Asus: Z10PE-D16 (BIOS 3104 or above)
Asus: Z10PR-D16 (BIOS 3104 or above)

ASRock: X99 series (all models with BIOS 3.00 or above or above)
ASRock: EPC612 series (all models with BIOS 2.10 or above)
ASRock: FH-C612NM (BIOS 1.10 or above)

MSI: X99 Godlike Gaming Carbon (BIOS 2.4 or above)
MSI: X99 Godlike Gaming (BIOS 1.6 or above)
MSI: X99A XPower Gaming Titanium
MSI: X99A Gaming Pro Carbon (BIOS 1.1 or above)
MSI: X99A Gaming 9 ACK (BIOS 3.4 or above)
MSI: X99S Gaming 9 ACK (BIOS 2.8 or above)
MSI: X99S Gaming 9 AC (BIOS 1.B or above)
MSI: X99A XPower AC (BIOS A.5 or above)
MSI: X99S XPower AC (BIOS 1.B or above)
MSI: X99A/S Gaming 7 (BIOS H.E or above)
MSI: X99A/S MPower (BIOS M.A or above)
MSI: X99A/S SLI Krait Edition (BIOS N.7 or above)
MSI: X99A/S SLI Plus (BIOS 1.C or above)
MSI: X99A Raider (BIOS P.4 or above)

EVGA: X99 Family (all models with BIOS 2.01 or above)

Note: A BIOS upgrade may be necessary for motherboards manufactured prior to the introduction of Xeon E5-2600 v4 series CPUs series.
Note: A firmware upgrade of an onboard chip other than BIOS may be necessary for some Asus Z10 motherboards to enable dual-processor support.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

INCOMPATIBLE OR UNSTABLE Servers & Workstations:

Dell Precision Rack Workstation, Dell PowerEdge Rack Servers: support v4 series CPUs with A1/L0/B0/M0/R0 stepping, v4 series CPUs QS version or retail version/ OEM version CPUs only.

HP servers and workstations: support v4 series CPUs with B0/M0/R0 stepping, v4 series CPUs QS version or retail version/ OEM version CPUs only.

INCOMPATIBLE OR UNSTABLE Motherboards:

Asus X99 Express Chipset motherboards (Only supports assembled or DIY desktop computers): some but not all stuck on Q-Code 19 after reboot; They support v4 series CPUs with B0/M0/R0 stepping, v4 series CPUs QS version or retail version/ OEM version CPUs only.

Gigabyte X99 Express Chipset motherboards (Only supports assembled or DIY desktop computers, with BIOS F22 or above): some but not all boot loop; They support v4 series CPUs with B0/M0/R0 stepping, v4 series CPUs QS version or retail version/ OEM version CPUs only.

*******************************************************************
The CPU-Z screenshots shows the Stepping, the Number of CPU cores, level 1 cache , level 2 cache and level 3 cache ,Max TDP, multiplier, and the Core speed (the maximum frequency) which is the maximum ALL cores frequency at which the processor is capable of operating using Intel® Turbo Boost Technology (Turbo Boost all of the cores simultaneously).
All of the engineering sample (ES) version of E5-2600 series CPUs are NOT UNLOCKED but will be able to turbo up ALL cores (Turbo Boost all of the cores simultaneously) to the maximum frequency which the CPU-Z screenshots uploaded shows.
Special Notice:
1.
Intel's definition of Max Turbo Frequency in Intel's official site is "Max turbo frequency is the maximum SINGLE core frequency at which the processor is capable of operating using Intel® Turbo Boost Technology." Therefore, the meaning of "Max Turbo Frequency" which shows on intel's official site, is different from the meaning of the Core speed (Turbo Boost all of the cores simultaneously) shows in the CPU-Z screenshots uploaded on this page.
About Intel Turbo Boost, the Calculation of Intel Turbo Boost shows an Example on the middle of this page of this link.
Please refer to
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Turbo_Boost
2.
About C6/C7 low-power states problem( If you are experiencing stability problems or worse, the system shut down completely): Because most power supplies do NOT support Haswell's C6/C7 low-power states, so If you are experiencing stability problems or worse, the system shut down completely, please disable C6/C7 power states, which will not affect the performance and will just affect the low-power sleep states.
Read more: According to an Intel document viewed by the gang at The Tech Report, Haswell’s C6/C7 states requires a minimum load of 0.05 amps on the 12V2 line. Power supplies that are older or budget models simply aren’t capable of delivering such a small amount of juice. As a result, users with incompatible power supplies may experience stability problems or worse, the system may shut down completely if the power supply unit (PSU)'s under- or over-voltage protection kicks in.
3. About Intel Turbo Boost VS Overclocking:
In one simple word it is a dynamic overclocking rather than a static overclocking.

Because of the item is an ES (engineering sample) version CPU, for detailed specifications, Intel has not yet announced.
Please refer to the OEM or retail version of the detailed specifications and the test screenshots of the CPU-Z release
(ES detailed specifications for individual products may differ from the OEM or retail version).
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#41 Re: Xeon server build

Post by pinhodecarlos »

Thank you Scole. Took me awhile to read this and need some time to digest it. I'll come back with some queries.
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#42 Re: Xeon server build

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I would like to butt in here, as since last Sept I've been aquiring both ES and non-ES E5 v3 and v4 Xeons for various system builds. I'm by no means experienced in this, but I have built up a bit of experience in purchasing and trying out several of these. All together 10 xeons purchased, 2 sent back, for a total of 8 in my possession, only 6 are active in system builds right now but the other two I have tested and will build out soon.

- Early on I decided to go four dual socket setups, because there is so much expense in each system tied up in other resources (case, PSU, disks, cooling, etc) that it seemed to me worth doubling up on the processors and spending a bit more on a dual socket motherboard. Especially as the CPUs can actually be quite cheap if buying v2 or v3 versions. I haven't regretted this decision. You get double the firepower, obvoiusly, but without having to spend double the money.

- Motherboards. I tried out the ASRock EP2C612D8C first of all and had no issues with it at all. This is an ATX motherboard, and there are very few dual socket ATX motherboards around. Supermicro makes some too, which seem to be well regarded (I have never tried them) but if you are going for dual socket and ATX I think your choice is basically between ASRock and Supermicro. I bought a couple more of those, and later I bought an EP2C612D8 (without the 'C' at the end) which is slightly cheaper. I had a bit more issues setting this one up as it doesn't seem as flexible in the way the memory is configured, and I had to play around with various configurations before settling on one that worked (and it wasn't one of the configurations recommended in the user manual). I am not sure which of these two I'll get for the next build. One slight issue is that neither board is 100% compatible with the standard ATX mounting hold configuration; there were one or two places where I had to leave a screw out. If I remember correctly the motherboard is held down by only 6 screws, and only two at the top, where the big heavy cpu coolers hang. For that reason I would NEVER transport these boxes upright with the motherboard, CPUs, and coolers installed (they should lie flat with the coolers upright rather than cantilevered and putting stress on the board), but I think it is fine when they are just set up under your desk or whatever.

-Cases. I wanted the ATX because I like the Fractal Design Define R4 cases; good cases that are low price. I have also tried the Define R5 which is newer and updated. I actually prefer the R4 and will go back to that for the next build (it is 20 - 30 € cheaper). The R4 has one weak spot however that if you grasp it by the front to pick it up the top of the front panel tends to pop out, disconnecting the USB and/or audio connections there. It is very awkward to get the connections back in place because space there is limited. This seems to be fixed with the R5. However if you know about this weakness and are careful how you pick up the case it isn't an issue I've found.

-CPU cooler. I have used the Noctua NH-U12DX i4 on each build and I am extremely happy with it. It's a very high quality cooler. Obviously you'll need two of these for each dual socket build. You don't need extra fans; a single fan on each cooler (as supplied) is enough. I also use Noctua case fans on all builds and have been doing so for years without any issues. Some people don't like the look of the Noctua fans but their brown/tan colour doesn't bother me. You can get the black Noctua fans for the same price but these run at much higher RPM and are quite noisy (though push a lot of air).

-PSU. DON'T skimp on the PSU; buy a high quality one (note: Corsair does NOT qualify as high quality). These builds don't need a lot of amperage, and it is much better to go with a low-power high quality PSU than an average or poor quality one with a 'high' output rating. The thing is, if you are not confident of your PSU, and you run into some stability issues, it will be hard to know whether the issue is with the PSU or something else. I have the XFX XTS fanless Platinum 520 W which is plenty enough power for these builds, and the are completely silent (having no fans).

-Disks. Obviously get SSDs, beyond that, it doesn't really matter (though I like the Samsungs). I use a 128 GB one for the system drive, and an additional (usually bigger) SSD for data, though actually a separate data drive on these boxes is a bit of overkill as most data is not hosted on these boxes which are primarily for crunching.

-CPUS. So the bit you actually asked about. I'd add to the above post by saying you have three options: ES ('Engineering Sample'), QS ('Qualification Sample') and used retail. The QS chips are just very late edition ES, sometimes identical or almost identical to the retail release. I bought a pair of ES chips and ended up sending them back because the way they ramped up the frequency in my system was just downright weird (I could never get all the cores ramped up to max frequency, and there was a lot of jumping around.) Since then I have only gone with QS and that is what I would recommend if you are buying non-retail. I am happy with the performance of all the QS chips I bought. You have to be quite careful looking at the CPU details in each eBay listing to figure out exactly what chip it is and whether it is ES or QS, although many of the QS variants will have "QS" in the listing title. Also, I personally would not bid on any listing that does not have CPU-Z screenshots, HWiNFO screenshots, and preferable Cinebench ones as well. I have dealt with several eBay vendors and there is one in particular I like (and have dealt with off-eBay, where I got a 10% discount or something by asking for a PayPal invoice directly and it worked out very well). PM me for details.

Also, feel free to order from the US based eBay site, where you'll find a lot more choice than on the UK one. All the vendors ship internationally for low cost (and the ones I dealt with, speedily) and you can usually get the customs declaration for a fraction of the actual value. The most I paid on customs was 50 €. The two CPUs I had to send back because they were weird was not an issue with the seller I used. (By the way, those ES CPUs worked fine on Linux; it was on Windows they were weird.)

There is a performance difference between the ES, QS, and retail chips; don't believe the listings when they say they are all the same. The prices wouldn't be different if that were the case. I also did get a pair of used retail CPUs and they perform a bit better than the QS ones (probably because they clock slightly higher). And like I said, the ES ones I tried out were a bit strange and I could never get their theoretical performance out of them.

The main difference between v3 and v4 E5 Xeons is not in performance but in power consumption. There is very little difference in their performance in my experience (the v3 are 22 nanometre, the v4 are 14 nanometre lithography) except perhaps for some specialised tasks I have no experience with (anyone?). I have not tried v2 (by now really cheap CPUs); perhaps someone else on the forum can advise on those. They are definitely more power hungry than the v3s again, but I don't know about performance. If you get v4 and the ASRock motherboard, you will need the latest 2.10 BIOS which it does NOT ship with, and you cannot update the BIOS with the v4 CPUs installed (or no CPUs installed). So your choice is either to get a BIOS chip with the 2.10 version preinstalled (eBay vendors sell them; possibly the vendor of the motherboard could too, worth asking) and pop that in ourself (supposedly easy - I've never done it), or use a v3 CPU to update the BIOS, then install the v4 CPUs. Depending on how much you pay for electricity (for me it has been free since last Sept, though this will end in Aug and I will be paying regular grid prices again - albeit in Hungary, the cheapest EU country for electricity), it can be worth paying extra for v4 CPUs, but this is something you'll have to decide.

One possible advantage with some v3 chips is that by dint of a design mistake by Intel some models are actually overclockable. There are details on this forum about how to do that. I haven't yet but plan to when I get my last pair of CPUs built out.

Once you have your system set up, especially if you are using ES or QS CPUs, run prime95 for several days (on high core count systems you might have to run two instances of prime95 concurrently) to make sure the system is stable.

It is possible to get an almost completely silent system, even when using all cores at 100%. With the Fractal Design cases (supposedly optimised for silence, with sound-deadening linings), several Noctua case fans each running at low RPM, the Noctua i4 CPU cooler I mentioned, and the fanless PSU (and no graphics card installed - there is onboard VGA for setup and then I RDP to these boxes anyway), at 32 C ambient temp the CPU temps on the v4 28 core systems are in the mid 50s at 100% on all cores! That is pretty amazing. (Temps on the 44 core system is a bit higher but not too much.)

EDIT: I would be sceptical about the above claim by scole250 that the E5-2690 ES QHV5 will clock to 3.1 GHz on all cores simultaneously. I am pretty sure the 3.1 GHz figure is for one core when other cores are not turbo'ed, which is how Intel defines max turbo for Xeons. There is another listing of this very CPU by another eBay vendor that includes a lot more info (CPU-Z, HWiNFO, and Cinebench as I advised):

E5-2690 ES QHV5

From what I can tell from the data in the screenshots that CPU will max out at 2.5 GHz on all cores simultaneously. Maybe someone else can correct me if that's wrong? That is the CPU uncore listed. I have a similar CPU, the E5-2658 v4 14 core, and it maxes out at 2.5 GHz on all cores, and mine is a QS not ES version. I would verify with the seller what this ES (not QS) chip will turbo up to on all cores. Some eBay sellers are very explicit about this in their listings. Also, because that is an ES and not QS sample, I would avoid it (notice how in the HWiNFO screenshots the turbo is a lot less than expected - why?)

By the way, you cannot trust the official Intel specs for this chip, or any ES/QS samples, as their specs appliy to retail versions, not ES versions.
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#43 Re: Xeon server build

Post by scole of TSBT »

noetus wrote: Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:16 pm EDIT: I would be sceptical about the above claim by scole250 that the E5-2690 ES QHV5 will clock to 3.1 GHz on all cores simultaneously. I am pretty sure the 3.1 GHz figure is for one core when other cores are not turbo'ed, which is how Intel defines max turbo for Xeons. There is another listing of this very CPU by another eBay vendor that includes a lot more info (CPU-Z, HWiNFO, and Cinebench as I advised):
I agree that you need to be skeptical and make sure you research the CPUs thoroughly. I mis-stated the max turbo on all cores but only a little but. It's actually only 3Ghz. While researching I found more than one post with HWinfo pics of a QHV5 with all cores clocking at 3.0. Here's one forum post....https://forums.servethehome.com/index.p ... ost-104865
Now I don't actually have one so I can't guaranty they actually clock at 3.0Ghz but I'd be willing to take the chance. Not all Xeon V4 ES CPUs claiming to be a E5-2690 are QHV5 CPUs though.
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#44 Re: Xeon server build

Post by pinhodecarlos »

My budget is £1,000. What should I get?
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#45 Re: Xeon server build

Post by Dirk Broer »

pinhodecarlos wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:59 am My budget is £1,000. What should I get?
I'd say try a 2nd hand Dual Socket motherboard and two likewise Xeon's. For a hypothetical 32 thread Dual Xeon system I advise at least 64GB of ECC RAM -with the option to install an extra 64GB later(cash register sounds, please), and those two puppies need to be cooled well too, to ensure good performance.
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#46 Re: Xeon server build

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scole250 wrote: Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:42 pm I agree that you need to be skeptical and make sure you research the CPUs thoroughly. I mis-stated the max turbo on all cores but only a little but. It's actually only 3Ghz. While researching I found more than one post with HWinfo pics of a QHV5 with all cores clocking at 3.0. Here's one forum post....https://forums.servethehome.com/index.p ... ost-104865
Now I don't actually have one so I can't guaranty they actually clock at 3.0Ghz but I'd be willing to take the chance. Not all Xeon V4 ES CPUs claiming to be a E5-2690 are QHV5 CPUs though.
That's nice; depending on what you do, the extra cycles can make a difference. When I was purchasing my 14 core CPUs I wasn't aware that there were any ES versions that would clock this high on all cores. Research, research, research! Is there a QS version of the QHV5 E5-2690 I wonder?

EDIT: Here's an eBay seller selling a QHV5-2690 also with HIiNFO showing 3.0 GHz on all cores simultaneously. I can vouch for this eBay seller incidentally.
E5-2690 QHV5 on eBay @ 3.0 GHz all cores
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#47 Re: Xeon server build

Post by noetus »

Now here's the thing, and personally this is what makes it difficult for me to figure out exactly what the best purchase options for the CPU are.

Here's a seller selling an E5-4669 v3 QS QH9B. Now this will only clock to 2.4 GHz but it's an 18 core CPU, and slightly cheaper than the 14 core we've been discussing. Performance should be very similar. Admittedly it is v3 not v4; on the other hand it is QS and not ES (which I would feel happier about). If one were shopping in this budget range, how to choose?
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#48 Re: Xeon server build

Post by noetus »

pinhodecarlos wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:59 am My budget is £1,000. What should I get?
For the CPU(s) only, or the entire system?
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#49 Re: Xeon server build

Post by pinhodecarlos »

Entire system.
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#50 Re: Xeon server build

Post by scole of TSBT »

noetus wrote: Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:06 amEDIT: Here's an eBay seller selling a QHV5-2690 also with HIiNFO showing 3.0 GHz on all cores simultaneously. I can vouch for this eBay seller incidentally.
E5-2690 QHV5 on eBay @ 3.0 GHz all cores
That HWiNFO pic looks strangely familiar :think:
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#51 Re: Xeon server build

Post by Bryan »

Excellent vendor ... I've bought 3 pairs of CPUs from them.
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#52 Re: Xeon server build

Post by noetus »

pinhodecarlos wrote: Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:04 am Entire system.
On that budget I am guessing you will go single-socket.

I would figure out how much it will cost to buy the system minus the CPU, then see what is left over for the CPU. For example, you might already have a computer case lying around, or other bits and pieces such as a PSU you can put into it without having to spend much. Perhaps you are going to cannabilise an old system of yours for parts. Or have a look on eBay and see if you can find a PC with bad motherboard someone is trying to flog, that could form the basis of your system. Think creatively!

Then try pricing the components for various types of motherboard you are thinking of For example, if you price a used LGA-2011 motherboard (for v2 or v3 E5 processors) on eBay for the kind of case you envisage (eg. ATX or ITX) then you can view the selection of processors for that board and try to figure out which will get you the best bang for the buck with what you still have left in your budget. Try also LGA-2011 v3 (for later v3 and v4 processors), but you might find that pops your budget when you add in other components.

When you have a possible configuration, post it here (with prices for each component) for some advice. At this stage it would just be an idea, a suggestion to start off some discussion, nothing written in stone.
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#53 Re: Xeon server build

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#54 Re: Xeon server build

Post by noetus »

That's a great article - it's what got me into these Xeon server builds in the first place! Thanks for posting it.
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#55 Re: Xeon server build

Post by noetus »

How about the following 24 core / 48 thread build:

Component         Model & Source             Price (£)

Motherboard:      ASRock EP2C612D8 Dual Socket     300
CPU:          2 x Intel E5-2648L 1.8GHz 12 Core    270
Memory:       4 x Kingston KVR21R15D8/8 (32 GB)    280
CPU cooler:   2 x Noctua NH-U12DX i4               110
Power supply:     Seasonic G450 450W 80+ Gold       75
PWM Fans:     2 x Noctua NF-A14 PWM                 50
ULN Fan:          Noctua NF-A14 ULN                 20
System Drive:     Samsung 850 EVO 120 GB            50
Data Drive:       Western Digital Red 3 TB         100
Case:             Fractal Design Define R4          75
TOTAL:                                            1330
  • Obviously the total is a bit more than you proposed as a budget, but I just wanted to showcase what is possible, and there are various ways of saving costs. If you already have a case and drives lying about or that can be cannabilised, that could save over 200. You can also drop down to a single socket board (EPC612 series), and/or get a processor with fewer cores. That could save a couple of hundred. You didn't specify your memory needs, and memory is expensive for these servers. You could save another 140 by going for 16GB instead of 32GB. The above list is just a starting off point, and offers some flexibility.
  • The article cited by Dirk features the ESRock EP2C602 series of boards. I recommend avoiding these boards as they are the by now outdated LGA 2011 boards which only let you install CPUs that are v3 (less power efficient) and only up to 8 cores (they maxed out their build at 16 cores / 32 threads). By getting the EP2C612 series (LGA 2011 v3) you can use v3 or v4 (with a BIOS update) processors with up to 22 cores each. That gives you much more flexibility now and in the future if you ever want to upgrade (just pop in replacement processors) and I found the cost to be practically the same for the two board variants when I did a quick price check.
  • The processors I only gave as an example. I linked to a QS (Qualification Sample) listing on eBay, but you can go for the cheaper ES (Engineering Sample) processors although I do not recommend doing that. You can choose a lower clock or higher clock, or fewer cores or more cores, Haswell or Skylake, and so on. There is really a lot of flexibility here, and it will depend on your specific usage scenario. I do think that the 12 core CPUs offer a very good performance/price tradeoff, especially if you install two of them. Before pulling the trigger on any processor purchase, make sure you post about it here with a specific link. And always check with the vendor about motherboard compatibility before purchasing, and tell them the specific motherboard you have or are planning on buying so they can 100% check availability. This is a bit of a hornet's nest, with all the processor variants about.
  • The memory I suggested is on the motherboard manufacturer's QV (qualified vendor) list and is proper ECC server memory. I would recommend using only QVL memory for any server board; you can find the list for this board here. It is clocked at 2133 and you could go for 2400 but there is little point; it is more expensive and offers only fractionally better performance.
  • I like Seasonic as a PSU manufacturer. Corsair is better known, but Seasonic supply PSUs for a lot of the OEMs and the quality is good (better than Corsair imho which is just well-marketed).
  • I've suggested purchasing three case fans for this build, along with the Fractal Design R4 case. I really like this case; it is cheap but doesn't feel cheap, and it offers lots of flexibility. It already comes with two servicable front fans which you can just leave in place, and the additional 3 Noctua fans will provide plenty of air circulation. I would mount the two PWM fans on the top of the case as exhaust fans, and the one ULN fan at the rear as an inlet fan. You could consider the purchase of an additional ULN fan as an inlet for the case side panel, but it isn't necessary (just leave the cover off). It is better to run more fans each at lower RPM; if you run the PWM fans with Noctua's low noise adapters (supplied in the fan packaging) you will find that the build is extremely silent, silent enough to be in your living room with all cores maxed out.
  • With some components it is worth ordering from the USA. I would do this with the motherboard and the memory; these are both easy to pack and ship, and the US prices seems significantly better. The Newegg deal on that motherboard is especially good. To order from Newegg, you might have to use a US-based reshipper such as reship.com to get the thing sent to the UK (with minimal or no customs charges) as they won't ship internationally; I've factored in an extra $50 to cover this. If you can't do this, that motherboard is available from Germany on the German eBay site, though for a bit more.
  • Definitely install your OS on a separate drive and make sure it is an SSD.

    I'll finish off by saying I've had personal experience building using all the above components (except for that particular processor and that particular Seasonic PSU; I've built with other Seasonics though) and I have never had any issues.
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#56 Re: Xeon server build

Post by Alez »

Jeez, I've just finished upgrading /updating all my GPU's ..... now you've got me thinking of updating my servers from gen 6 / 7 HP's #sadface and depleted wallet.
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#57 Re: Xeon server build

Post by pinhodecarlos »

Thank you all. I've read everything and basically I need to invest in all parts since I only own laptops. I'm considering those old HP Z200 but I need to read more.
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#58 Re: Xeon server build

Post by scole of TSBT »

See what it cost to for shipping and customs for these systems...
Z600, 2x X5675 3.06Ghz , 48GB RAM

Z800, 2x X5690 3.46Ghz
48GB RAM for this system

Or perhaps a series new LGA 2011 system...
Dell T7600, 1x E5-2687W 3.1/3.4Ghz, 32GB RAM
2nd E5-2687W CPU
CPU cooler
additional 32 GB RAM (assuming base system using 4x8GB sticks)

If the apps you want to run have more need for Ghz than newer chipsets, memory speed and other chip features such as AVX2, then those series systems/cpus are not bad for the money
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#59 Re: Xeon server build

Post by noetus »

Does it really make sense to purchase 6 year old server technology? I imagine the cost savings over more recent hardware gets erased within a year or two if running them constantly. Isn't it better to pay this extra cost for more recent hardware that will be more powerful as well as more energy efficient?
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#60 Re: Xeon server build

Post by scole of TSBT »

noetus wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:14 pm Does it really make sense to purchase 6 year old server technology? I imagine the cost savings over more recent hardware gets erased within a year or two if running them constantly. Isn't it better to pay this extra cost for more recent hardware that will be more powerful as well as more energy efficient?
Newer would be better. What do you recommend for £1,000?
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#61 Re: Xeon server build

Post by Dirk Broer »

noetus wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:14 pm Does it really make sense to purchase 6 year old server technology? I imagine the cost savings over more recent hardware gets erased within a year or two if running them constantly. Isn't it better to pay this extra cost for more recent hardware that will be more powerful as well as more energy efficient?
You have to carefully select your Xeons in each generation. TDP varies wildly, together with the MHz.
Socket 2011 (DDR3) doesn't suffer much compared to the newer Socket 2011-3 (DDR4).
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#62 Re: Xeon server build

Post by scole of TSBT »

From my testing running Carlos' app, 14 threads on a Xeon V4 clocking at 2.8Ghz with 28GB RAM reserved runs about the same as a 2x X5675 (24 threads) using 36GB RAM. A 10c/20t V4 ES system clocking at 2.4Ghz on all threads should do as much. I'd estimate $1,200 to build a single cpu system w/32GB RAM, maybe $100 more for 12c/24t system. That's if you buy it here in the US though. If the parts can be bought and shipped to the UK for £1,000, then it would be worth it. Would use 50%-66% of the lecky a Z600 2x X5675 system uses (~350 watts?). If can save 150 watts, then assuming your power rate is .15 per kwh, you could save around 197 per year.
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#63 Re: Xeon server build

Post by noetus »

Mains electricity costs vary in the EU. In US dollars (using Eurostat figures for 2016), in the UK it is 0.20 per kWh, 33% more than what you were basing your calculations on, which is significant. So the payoff for using more recent hardware is considerably more. In Denmark and Germany the price is even higher - 0.35 and 0.34 respectively, more than double what you were assuming! Just using your figures over 2.5 years we are talking about a cost saving of almost the original cost of the system. No wonder the big tech companies turf out all their old systems after a few years and invest in the latest hardware.

Hungary (where I live) and Bulgaria are the cheapest EU countries for power, 0.13 and 0.11 US dollars respectively. So the payoff for newer hardware partly depends where you live. You also have to factor in the higher chance of hardware failure for older equipment, especially server equipment that has seen 24/7 use (after 6 years some equipment, such as SSDs, might be reaching the end of their design life).

The cheapest place in Europe is Kosovo, a mere .07.

A quick glance at electricity prices in the US (from the US EIA) reveals wide state-by-state differences there too, from .27 in Hawaii to .09 in Washington, with prices generally lower than in the EU.

Another factor to consider is that if you buy one of those old servers you're going to get yourself a pretty noisy system, in all likelihood. If you build a system yourself you can make it near silent. And don't forget - you'll have manufacturer's warranties on all those new components of your build (excluding the CPU if you get a used/ES/QS version). I don't think you get any warranty purchasing used server equipment on eBay, maybe DOA that's all.

What is Carlos' app? I wouldn't mind running some tests of my own.
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#64 Re: Xeon server build

Post by pinhodecarlos »

Guys,

I'm an energy consultant and I trying to understand what's the most efficient machine to run several things like prime hunting, factoring (msieve, nfs@home) and prime gaps.

For example, the new intel desktop cpu's throttle when you use avx512.
So prime hunting uses avx, avx2.0 and in the near future avx512. When using Prime95/LLR with lots of cores the memory is the bottleneck.

Factoring (msieve client, or NFS@Home) is pure GHz needed as well as the gaps prime application.

What I don't understand is the example of my ivybridge laptop when running prime gaps on 4 threads (30 W, 18-20e9 n/s, depends on the range being processed) is more efficient than these systems:

6e9 n/s i3-530 2.9GHz 3 thread (Windows/Cygwin)
19e9 n/s E5-2666v3 2.9GHz 8 thread
27e9 n/s i7-4770k 4.3GHz 8 thread
32e9 n/s i7-6700k 4.2GHz 8 thread
34e9 n/s E5-2666v3 2.9GHz 16 thread
59e9 n/s E5-2686v4 2.7GHz 48 thread

My laptop, sandybridge i7- 3630QM.
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#65 Re: Xeon server build

Post by pinhodecarlos »

Prime gaps application:
gap5_g_linux.zip
gap5_g.zip
cygwin1.zip



gap5_g -n1 9000e15 -n2 9001e15 -gap 1346 -delta 155 -sb 24 -bs 18 -t 4 -mem 12

Windows:

start /low /min gap5_g.exe -n1 9000e15 -n2 9001e15 -gap 1364 -delta 155 -sb 24 -bs 18 -mem 12 -t 4

-t number of threads
-mem memory allocated
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#66 Re: Xeon server build

Post by pinhodecarlos »

gap5_g_linux_static.zip
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#67 Re: Xeon server build

Post by pinhodecarlos »

I'm also considering the prime gaps is not well optimised for full threads or it has memory bottleneck. I suppose it will be quicker on a multi core machine run several instances of the client even set to a lower 1 thread.
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#68 Re: Xeon server build

Post by Dirk Broer »

pinhodecarlos wrote: Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:27 pmWhat I don't understand is the example of my ivybridge laptop when running prime gaps on 4 threads (30 W, 18-20e9 n/s, depends on the range being processed) is more efficient than these systems:

6e9 n/s i3-530 2.9GHz 3 thread (Windows/Cygwin)
19e9 n/s E5-2666v3 2.9GHz 8 thread
27e9 n/s i7-4770k 4.3GHz 8 thread
32e9 n/s i7-6700k 4.2GHz 8 thread
34e9 n/s E5-2666v3 2.9GHz 16 thread
59e9 n/s E5-2686v4 2.7GHz 48 thread
Make sure each thread has the same amount of RAM, when you make a comparison like this.
IMHO a 48 thread Xeon should have 192GB of RAM (4GB/thread), a 16 thread Xeon 64GB, a 8 thread Xeon or i7 32GB.
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#69 Re: Xeon server build

Post by scole of TSBT »

Verify how the different options affect performance...
Usage: gap [options]

Options:
-n1 x First number to check is x
-n2 y last number to check is y
-gap g searching for gap>=g (default=1346)
-delta d sieving on k*m+[0,d) intervals (default=196)
-sb u sieve uses 2^u bits of memory (default=25)
-bs v one bucket size is 2^v bytes (default=14)
-mem m the maximal memory usage is m GB (m can be any real number)
-t k use k threads
Maybe different values for -gap, -delta, -sb, and -bs give better performance on higher thread or memory systems.
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#70 Re: Xeon server build

Post by pinhodecarlos »

We are all using the same gap, delta, sb and bs sometimes.
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