16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

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#1 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by Alez »

https://boincstats.com/en/stats/challenge/team/chat/960

Name Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ?
Status Upcoming
Project Rosetta@Home
Issued by The Scottish Boinc Team
Start time 2017-10-16 01:00 UTC
End time 2017-10-23 01:00 UTC
Late entrants allowed? Yes
Number of teams participating » 8
Number of users participating 0
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#2 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by Alez »

Challenge called by TSBT so it would be great to have a good showing on it..... You guys know what to do.
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#3 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by Bryan »

Whoever schedules these 7 day challenges should be keel hauled after being flogged ... just sayin'
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#4 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by Dirk Broer »

Bryan wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:44 am Whoever schedules these 7 day challenges should be keel hauled after being flogged ... just sayin'
I don't agree. For projects like PrimeGrid 7 days is sometimes even too short (depending on the application), for RNA I would even suggest 7 months....
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#5 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by Alez »

Bryan wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:44 am Whoever schedules these 7 day challenges should be keel hauled after being flogged ... just sayin'
I know, just not long enough :twisted: However you can always bunker for a few days to spin it out even further :dance:
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#6 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by Bryan »

Dirk Broer wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:08 am
Bryan wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:44 am Whoever schedules these 7 day challenges should be keel hauled after being flogged ... just sayin'
I don't agree. For projects like PrimeGrid 7 days is sometimes even too short (depending on the application), for RNA I would even suggest 7 months....
If you run anything except the GPU sieve on a PG "team" challenge you are wasting your time so you don't need 7 days :)

I will come play and probably with a full bunker. I owe Scole big time for helping me help a SUSA member get over the 100M mark on Xansons. Running the next TSBT challenge was the way I bribed him :lol:
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#7 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by Alez »

Bryan wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:45 pm I will come play and probably with a full bunker.
Sweet :dance: Bunker bragging rights up for grabs :shifty:
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#8 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by scole of TSBT »

Rosetta appears to be poised to release a new app version called simply "Rosetta" instead of "Rosetta Mini". A few WUs have been released so far but not many. They show up as a new WUProp app also, for me anyway. Hopefully they will release lots more before its bunker time.

EDIT: we are still more than 2 days away from the safe bunker date. Empty those caches and get ready to load a full 7 days after we get within the window.
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#9 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by Alez »

Half a league half a league,
Half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred:
'Forward, the Light Brigade!
Charge for the guns' he said:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.

Acoustic cache should be gone soon....ish.
Of course if the GC hordes crash the party then increase in world top 100 position is best we can hope for, unless a large number of our team turn up for the event.
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#10 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by Bryan »

Alez wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:43 pm
Bryan wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:45 pm I will come play and probably with a full bunker.
Sweet :dance: Bunker bragging rights up for grabs :shifty:
Not to make excuses but I probably won't have a full bunker. We leave for Texas Saturday morning and will be on the road until the evening of the 10th. That means I probably won't be able to start until we arrive.

Does anyone know if it pays better on Linux or Windows and how big a cache will it give per machine or thread?
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#11 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by Bryan »

HEADS UP - potential gotcha.

I put 1 instance of BOINC on it tonight to get a feel for Rosetta since I hadn't run it for a long time. No problem getting work however I did notice that it was running 32 bit apps. I looked at the project's application page and it showed both 32 and 64 bit.

I attached another instance of BOINC from the same machine BUT I changed the no_alt_platform in the cc_config file 1st. When it got work the executables were 64 bit. This may make a difference in credits. I had forgotten this project allows you to set the time a WU runs. I won't know the results of the credits of 32 vs 64 bits until tomorrow morning.

One nice thing is for bunkering you can set long WU times and then before the challenge starts you can select much shorter ones.
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#12 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by Bryan »

1, I don't really see any difference between Linux and Windows.
2. The 32 bit vs 64 is a non-issue. It turns out that it does give a 64 bit app if you tell it no_alt_platform however according to Task Manager that _64.exe executable runs as a 32 bit. So apparently it is 64 bit in name only.
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#13 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by scole of TSBT »

I compared 32bit win, 64bit win, 32 bit linux and 64bit linux from the same hardware. I did see a slight difference in performance but it wasn't logical. 32bit linux and 64bit win each performed about 7% better than 32bit win and 64bit linux. I don't consider that conclusive. It doesn't make sense. If the sample was much bigger I figure it would all be similar.

I do have an app_info.xml for windows to crunch just the new ver 4 app but there's little work and rigs would sit empty if used right now.
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#14 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by Dirk Broer »

scole of TSBT wrote: Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:31 pmI compared 32bit win, 64bit win, 32 bit linux and 64bit linux from the same hardware. I did see a slight difference in performance but it wasn't logical. 32bit linux and 64bit win each performed about 7% better than 32bit win and 64bit linux. I don't consider that conclusive. It doesn't make sense. If the sample was much bigger I figure it would all be similar.
Checks with http://wuprop.boinc-af.org/results/proj ... on=Rosetta
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#15 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by Megacruncher »

The only winner will be TSBT. :-) Already our RAC on Rosetta has tripled. And by tomorrow night I reckon we will be up to 99th place.
This is mainly down to scole who modestly hides his PCs on the Rosetta website but who must have several hundred cores at his command: Yesterday, according to Boincstats, I churned out 28K with about 60 cores on the project but scole managed an awesome 149K. :notworthy:
Hopefully the 16 core Threadripper which I have just ordered from Scan will arrive in time to allow me to join the serious ass-kicking!
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#16 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by scole of TSBT »

TSBT has a bunch of Rosetta crunchers who have helped keep it in the top 100. Over the past month all these folks have contributed and deserve credit...
Mark Henderson
Megacruncher TSBT
danny
Geofrancis
Anita Squires
Andrew
Kostoglotov
Philippe
McSpuddles
Martin Green
KaizenMike
Sirius
Dodi Lamb
Giles
atfogarasi
Radio
Damsons1
tcatcarson
rjhowardmiller
Grum
MarkRBright
Alez
Shazzadouglas
Graham Hamilton

I hope they all continue and focus on Rosetta for the challenge. :-)
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#17 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by Bryan »

Plllttt 149k, just think what he would have done if he had been serious about it :shock:
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#18 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by Megacruncher »

scole of TSBT wrote: Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:36 am TSBT has a bunch of Rosetta crunchers who have helped keep it in the top 100. Over the past month all these folks have contributed and deserve credit...
Mark Henderson
Megacruncher TSBT
danny
Geofrancis
Anita Squires
Andrew
Kostoglotov
Philippe
McSpuddles
Martin Green
KaizenMike
Sirius
Dodi Lamb
Giles
atfogarasi
Radio
Damsons1
tcatcarson
rjhowardmiller
Grum
MarkRBright
Alez
Shazzadouglas
Graham Hamilton

I hope they all continue and focus on Rosetta for the challenge. :-)
Indeed, we've all done our bit. The list contains the names of many a loyal longterm TSBT cruncher who rarely if ever post in these boards but who are true Boincers using their spare cycles rather than crunching on specially bought hardware like some of us. We thank, salute & celebrate them all. :occasion7:
But that's no reason to ignore the achievements of someone with way too much kit who generated 190K of credit yesterday for a CPU only project! :clap: :notworthy:
Well done sir!
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#19 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by Bryan »

GC hasn't signed up and I hope it stays that way! They have a guy who does 800k/day ... can you say data center? With their 3M/day if they sign up everyone else will be competing for 2nd place. I can live with that if we have to.

Scole just uses his "spare" cycles for crunching. Since the computers he uses don't do anything else then ALL of his cycles are spare :lol:
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#20 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by Alez »

Rosetta@Home Image

TSBT now up to 99 on Rosetta@Home

Rosetta@Home position
PositionTeamPoints
96 Picard 46,533,395
97 Wieden Kennedy 45,346,205
98 ALS-tutkimuksen tuki ry 45,102,064
99 The Scottish Boinc Team 44,418,616
100 Protein structural analysis room Japan 44,057,225
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#21 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by Bryan »

McShane of AP wrote: Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:43 am
I am running 13 Computers is because I am told everyday that they are single women looking for me in my area. It is nice to be wanted and I like to read that 13 times.
Dang Pete I'm missing out. I guess I need to turn off the ad blocker :roll:
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#22 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by Alez »

Bryan wrote: Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:01 pm
McShane of AP wrote: Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:43 am
I am running 13 Computers is because I am told everyday that they are single women looking for me in my area. It is nice to be wanted and I like to read that 13 times.
Dang Pete I'm missing out. I guess I need to turn off the ad blocker :roll:
So what you guys are telling me is that I start displaying ads on the forum them I'll need to upgrade the server due to the increased traffic ..... :think:
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#23 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by Megacruncher »

There was a brief episode in our history when we had ads on the forum.
I turned them off because, firstly click thrus, whatever the lavish promises of Google, never earned me more than about 40p per month & secondly it turned out we were all competing for the affections of Doreen of TiredOLdSlappers.com who lived exactly 2 miles from all of us. A remarkable, but divisive, coincidence

As regards the fortunes of our Rosetta team we are now 97th! :dance: :diabloanifire:
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#24 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by scole of TSBT »

Rosetta has thrown a wrench in the bunker plan. It's giving out a lot of roberta WUs which only have a 3 day deadline.
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#25 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by Alez »

Megacruncher wrote: Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:02 am There was a brief episode in our history when we had ads on the forum.
I turned them off because, firstly click thrus, whatever the lavish promises of Google, never earned me more than about 40p per month & secondly it turned out we were all competing for the affections of Doreen of TiredOLdSlappers.com who lived exactly 2 miles from all of us. A remarkable, but divisive, coincidence

As regards the fortunes of our Rosetta team we are now 97th! :dance: :diabloanifire:
97th you say ? Must be worth another table :dance:

Rosetta@Home position
PositionTeamPoints
94 The Final Front Ear47,017,719
95 BOINC@Finland 46,798,899
96 Picard 46,540,569
97 The Scottish Boinc Team 45,398,125
98 Wieden Kennedy 45,346,205
As for the 40p per month, what can I say? Guess you guys didn't try hard enough !! Why only last week I had to turn down an offer of 10 million $ in an e mail, since I'd already had a better offer :roll:
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#26 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by Alez »

scole of TSBT wrote: Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:34 am Rosetta has thrown a wrench in the bunker plan. It's giving out a lot of roberta WUs which only have a 3 day deadline.
It's a conspiracy I tell you :ugeek:
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#27 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by scole of TSBT »

WUs with 3 day deadline are gone :-)
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#28 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by Bryan »

I tried to load up last night when we got to the hotel but there were no WU available. I did manage to fill up this morning and put a lid on it so I should be good to go now. A late start but actually better than I expected with the traveling.

I don't think GC has signed up!
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#29 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by Alez »

If things go to plan, then for the first time in a long time I will actually have some form of a bunker on this comp. :o
Think I've got the lid on 6 systems, couple more to follow closer to the kick off.
Still no GC. Are they sulking that we have no interest in their constant comps or are they pranking us with a last minute entry ? :shifty:
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#30 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by Alez »

I'm running the units for 12 hours and only getting between 230 and 300 points for each. Does this tally with what you guys are getting ? Is there any difference you can see for running shorter units ?
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#31 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by scole of TSBT »

Usually the longer the WU runs the higher the credit per run sec. I compared your linux X5650 system to my win64 X5650 system. On that 20 WU sample mine did avg about twice the credit per run sec than yours but credit per run sec varies widely based on the type WUs. The roberta WUs pay the best and I've been getting a lot of those. They begin with rb_. I wish there was a way to download just those.

Here are some hosts to compare if you want...
https://boinc.bakerlab.org/rosetta/show ... id=3275469
https://boinc.bakerlab.org/rosetta/show ... id=3275460
https://boinc.bakerlab.org/rosetta/show ... id=3274758
https://boinc.bakerlab.org/rosetta/show ... id=3215829

Bryan and I tried to do a comparison but we couldn't find a clear pay advantage but Win64 may be paying better right now.
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#32 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by scole of TSBT »

I'm going to roll the dice, let the active linux WUs finish, then boot to Win64 and reload.
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#33 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by Alez »

Since my servers only run nix , guess I'll stick with it. Had to open a couple of systems with units about to expire. Think all I've got now should be good till the start. The GPU systems I'll close in a few days time. Not going to be huge, but will be my best bunker effort for a while. Rosetta credit is as crap as seti.
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#34 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by Bryan »

Well we arrived in southern TX! Damn I'm glad that drive is over :)

I hope GC doesn't show up ... the last challenge without them was a pleasure. Maybe we should get their "whitelist" and only issue challenges on their black listed projects :whistle:

I'm running the 12 hour WU also but I have the lid on so I haven't turned in any yet. All my systems are on Windoze. When we got here I tied into the home machines and everything is running and I think there is enough work to make it to the start. Of course if there isn't I'll just bring up more BOINC instances and get more.
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#35 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by Dirk Broer »

Bryan wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:57 amI hope GC doesn't show up ... the last challenge without them was a pleasure. Maybe we should get their "whitelist" and only issue challenges on their black listed projects :whistle:
http://www.gridcoin.us/Guides/whitelist.htm
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#36 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by Bryan »

I have 8000 valid WU from where I was running with resource share of 0 before I started my bunker. I looked at them this morning and found the same thing Scole did about the type of WU. The rb_ and 4hm pay about double so If you are in a position do so then you need to run them in this order:

rb_
4hm

Then everything else. I think I have more WU than I can handle before the start so I've suspended everything except those 2 types. I'll have to run some of the lower paying ones but at least all the higher paying WU will be ready to turn in :twisted:
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#37 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by Alez »

Had to open some systems again. Failed to get enough work for the full bunker, my own fault, guess I didn't leave enough time to download and messed up the cpu time. Oh well, at least we get the credit to get us away from the drop zone.
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#38 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by scole of TSBT »

NO! Setup an additional client.
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#39 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by Alez »

Too late, plus mucked up major with disk size, plus can't be arsed going out to tech shed and messing . Won't have time to check results as busy for next 2 days so ... . Apart from that , all good :-)
Systems all buttoned up until the start.
Still no GC. Maybe they are following our boycott of all their pointless challenges. :D
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#40 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by Alez »

McShane of AP wrote: Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:53 amTalking about running extra clients. . Would appreciate a link please.
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#41 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by scole of TSBT »

When bunkering for rosetta you don't have to download 1000 WUs per system. The project allows you to choose the estimated runtime per WU, anywhere from 1 hr to 24 hrs. If you're going to bunker, set the estimated runtime to 24 hrs and load one per thread per days you need.
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#42 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by Bryan »

@Pete ... if you take the lid off your network it will upload your finished WU. IF YOU SUSPEND the project on those machines that have finished and DO NOT hit update then it should just upload the finished work but not report it. If you hit update you are screwed.

The easiest way to prevent that is use BoincTasks and set ALL computers to NETWORK not allowed. Then allow the new client to have network access and open up your firewall. After you load up the new machines then put the lid back on your firewall.
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#43 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by Alez »

McShane of AP wrote: Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:50 pmversion 7.8.2 should be skipped due to some serious problems like the slots not clearing.
Also has issues with removing projects with Bam. Can stick you into a neverending contact loop. Best avoided.

Think I read somewhere that Stop also has issues with WUProp.

3 days to go, 15 teams signed up. Tick tock ..... Anyone reading this on the team and not running Rosetta for TSBT at the moment, please consider joining us, even if only for a few days. Every little helps as a TV ad pointed out :think:
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#44 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by Dirk Broer »

Alez wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:59 amThink I read somewhere that Stop also has issues with WUProp.
WUProp is getting annoying in it's steering behaviour. I have already stopped using WUProp on my QCN system and I bet he -Sebastien- is pissed about the resurrection of Goofyx too...
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#45 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by Bryan »

Dirk Broer wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:49 am
WUProp is getting annoying in it's steering behaviour. I have already stopped using WUProp on my QCN system and I bet he -Sebastien- is pissed about the resurrection of Goofyx too...
Yes, it is getting annoying. I had reached my 1st star on the 5th ring and had a couple of small stars over that level. Now I'm back to needing 1 more. I have no idea what he took away this time. A real PITA!
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#46 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by Alez »

Bryan wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:43 am
Dirk Broer wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:49 am
WUProp is getting annoying in it's steering behaviour. I have already stopped using WUProp on my QCN system and I bet he -Sebastien- is pissed about the resurrection of Goofyx too...
Yes, it is getting annoying. I had reached my 1st star on the 5th ring and had a couple of small stars over that level. Now I'm back to needing 1 more. I have no idea what he took away this time. A real PITA!
I've just stopped looking. No idea why he has suddenly got all boinc police :naughty:
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#47 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by Megacruncher »

2 days to go until the Rosetta kick-off. I've not managed a full on Bunker but I still have 3867 WU in progress most of which should be cooked in 49 hours. No doubt & hopefully others will eclipse this massively. Which is good! 8-)
I'm sure we will do well in the challenge but the main thing will be consolidating our top 100 status. Currently we are 97th (better than I'd have expected at this stage) with the low 90's a real possibility, something which would leave us secure on Rosetta & free to further improve our already much improved WCG standing.
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#48 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by Bryan »

Megacruncher wrote: Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:49 am 2 days to go until the Rosetta kick-off. I've not managed a full on Bunker but I still have 3867 WU in progress most of which should be cooked in 49 hours.
Great! Did you get the Threadripper yet?
No doubt & hopefully others will eclipse this massively. Which is good! 8-)
It is a safe bet that the bunker master, Scole, will do a little better - he's the guru :bow-yellow: With luck I will add a little bit to our bunker drop also.
I'm sure we will do well in the challenge but the main thing will be consolidating our top 100 status. Currently we are 97th (better than I'd have expected at this stage) with the low 90's a real possibility, something which would leave us secure on Rosetta & free to further improve our already much improved WCG standing.
I think you might be a little on the low side of that estimate :shock: How about the low 80s (or mid 70s) - especially if McShane gets things going. When focused McShane can lay down some serious credits.

Speaking of which, how it is going Pete ... having any luck?
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#49 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by Bryan »

@Pete - you don't use the BOINC Manager to control it - use BoincTasks. You can actually use the manager but you have to give it the IP address followed by ":port number". ie if you set it up for port 2222 it would look something like 192.168.0.10:2222 That assumes my memory is correct since I haven't done that in years.

Have these in the options section of your cc_config:

<allow_multiple_clients>1</allow_multiple_clients>
<allow_remote_gui_rpc>1</allow_remote_gui_rpc>

In the gui_rpc_auth.cfg file put in the password you want to use for remote (ie what BoincTasks will use to get in).

Before BOINC will attach to a project and pull work you have to run the "CPU Benchmarks". In BoincTasks you find that under the EXTRA tab. If you have the command in your cc_config.xml:

<skip_cpu_benchmarks>0</skip_cpu_benchmarks>

make sure it is set to 0 otherwise BOINC won't run the benchmarks. It will not attach and pull work until it has run benchmarks.
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#50 Re: 16/10-23/10 Who Will Win The Rosetta Rosette ? Rosetta@home

Post by Alez »

Megacruncher wrote: Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:49 am2 days to go until the Rosetta kick-off. I've not managed a full on Bunker but I still have 3867 WU in progress most of which should be cooked in 49 hours. No doubt & hopefully others will eclipse this massively. Which is good! 8-)
Some of my systems have been bunkering since the 10th and I've got nothing like that number of units. I can only hope that running the 12 hour option is reflected in the points awarded. Probabily going to drop to the 4 hour option once we kick off unless there is a known balance point between points / time, but since this is credit screw I would have a good guess that the credit is totally random :naughty:
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